Art of pivoting, one marketing skill that no one's teaching and more | Abhimanyu Saha, Co-founder, GuruQore

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.

Mita Mandawker
(00:03):

Welcome back to Ctrl + Alt + Marketing. I am your host, Mita Mandawker. If you missed part one of our conversation with Abhimanyu Saha, co-founder of GuruQore and former strategy and planning director at Experience Commerce, hit pause and go catch up. You'll hear some wild stories about his early days of advertising career. In this episode, we are getting into the nitty gritty. What are the roots of account planning? What do digital planners really do? What's the inside story of building GuruQore? What are some challenges of being a missionary founder? And why even the most specialized marketers need to see the big picture. So let's dive into the final part of Abhimanyu's story. 

Mita Mandawker
(00:45):

Okay, now I want to clarify one thing, and that's something which occurred to me while I was listening to you, is for a lot of people who are not really acquainted with advertising or new in their marketing journey, could you just very briefly tell them that, you know, firstly, what does account planning do versus client servicing versus, like, you know, copy? And I know this is a little counterintuitive. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(01:08):

Not counterintuitive, actually lower. Most people don't understand it. It's a very nice question. Yeah. 

Mita Mandawker
(01:14):

So I think it's fun. I would want to explain that. And two, I would just want touch upon what, how does account planning differ in a very traditional mainline kind of a setup versus a digital setup? I'm aware of the mainline setup. Even I'm curious as to how account planning works in digital, because I never worked with digital agency. So would love to, you know, have these two things touched upon before we get into the very next new adventure of your life. But let's do this first. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(01:43):

Nice, interesting question. So again, as a person, when all of this is happening, I got very interested in advertising and I started digging into history for the first time of things which showed to me that I'm really interested. You know, I got all the science that I'm interested in, so I should start reading about history. And then I went back, you know, obviously were watching Mad Men. That was happening. But when account planning started, it was, I think, the 1960s. And the reason why it started was clients were spending considerable amount of money in advertising. All right? And that happened with the advent of tv, right? Tv was the thing that happened in 1950s, sixties as a media, a new thing opened up. Clients were spending money to put ads and make ads. So budgets were increasing. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(02:38):

So they figured that there has to be some sort of way to validate this. Research was already underway. Research had already started as a function for different other things, but not in advertising as such. So clients wanted to understand, okay, listen, I'm putting ads here, I'm putting this money here. Is it working? Not working, you know, so those questions started coming up. So account planning as a person became this whole person who was supposed to sort of validate if the customer is liking what you're doing. So he was trying to bring, or she was trying to bring this customer side of the story, that brand hair product. But do you really think this is working? So the customer's voice, in a single way, in a single term, is what the account planner does, brings the customer's voice to the brand, to the business. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(03:33):

That was a single job that the account planner had. Obviously, he would also sit down and shift to research work with the research teams. Like at that point, Gallup and all these, you know, Nielsen and all of them were coming out and would be the person on the agency side who would understand the speak, understand the language that researchers talk and, you know, bring that up and then make sure that the advertising side of it got this and the creatives got this customer's voice and therefore make ads which are more relevant, had more value and bank for the buck that clients spending. So that's the history. JWT and I think Maxim, polit, some of these were the first agencies which started this function of account planning. Right? So that's the history. Now what happens is in advertising, a brand is called an account, right? 

Abhimanyu Saha
(04:28):

And that's a generic word, right? So for someone from outside the link account, firstly, they confuse it with accounting, which is the saddest part of life. It's not accounting. Guys, come on, account. And accounting is different. Account is synonym for the brand and the business. So because you would get a business, they would call it an account. An account has come because they would be able to then make money out of it. That's why it's an account. So an account is a brand or a business in the context of marketing, advertising. Now, account planning means that you are the person who's strategizing and planning that account, that brand, that is account planning. The person who's the consumer's voice, the person who's strategizing, understanding the research, making the way forward for the brand is the account planner. Account is the brand. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(05:20):

So you can just call it brand planner. You can call it the strategic planner. So then different names start coming out of. But the end of the day, you're a person who used to plan along with the brand and the business. You're the strategic head, strategic person, bringing the consumer's voice, shifting to research, assimilating all that to make sure that everything that we do makes sense to the business, everything that we do makes sense to the customer. So you are that person right now in the sense account management. K o Gamata, the person who is every day managing the account or the brand. In the advertising side, not planning, managing. That means day to day conversation with the client, day to day conversation with the copywriter and activities that are happening. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(06:08):

That person is doing that role is called account management and the work is client servicing work. What you do is service the client, your role is account management. What you do is client servicing. All right so that's account management slash client servicing and account planners role that the profile is account planner but your role is to strategize, be the consumer's voice, make sure the brand understands where it is going, the business, assimilate all of that and make sure the brand is going forward. So you are planning for the brand, planning for the account. That's, these are the two most confused terms. Then obviously then copywriting, designing and all of that is when all of this business news information, customers voice understanding simulated and then filtered and given to these teams who then output the final messaging. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(07:07):

The messaging could be a visual message, it could be a text message which is a copywriter's job, right? It could be a script, it could be a newspaper ad, it could be emailer that comes to you. But you are all assimilating from this insights that have been given to you by the brand planner, account planner or by the account manager or whatever he's doing. And then designer, visualize is designing, visualizing, copyright is writing and then that's the messaging strategy, that's the output. So it's like a pipeline. Account manager gets the business tells you everything out. Account manager plans all the accounts, strategize, understand the consumers boys. Business gives all of that idea to distilled idea to that creative team. Then they output it in formats either in scripts, text, visuals, video, AI, whatnot. Today. 

Mita Mandawker
(08:04):

I think one of the best definitions or I think you broke down the entire advertising ecosystem in the best way. I think anyone who's very curious to know how do teams function in advertising. If they listen to this they're just going to get it straight away, no confusion involved. Before we again get to the GuruQore chapter which is like a beautiful, another chapter in itself very quickly would want touch upon what do you, what's the difference between like account planning in a mainline and in a digital agency. 

Abhimanyu Saha (08:36):

All right, so off the bat, I haven't worked mainline planning because, you know, I learned mainline planning, but I never worked in mainline planning agency because, you know, from the beginning of my career I was in digital, but I've learned and, you know, learned and so many anecdotes and testimonials there. The process is that because you are doing bigger, pivotal hero campaigns, you get a lot more time to work on the thing. So let's say nor is, again, nor came to my mind because nor was one of the brands my teacher would be speaking about is launching a soup. Let's see, right? And they will come to Ogilvy or like, you know, Linta's or whoever it is, and they will say that, okay, listen, we are launching this brand now. Let us figure out what the customer's journey is. What are the pain points? 

Abhimanyu Saha
(09:37):

Where can we introduce this? You know, it's a context of consumption we can leverage. All this will be then done through this researcher and the planning team because they're doing a new launch, a new campaign. So there's a lot more time, lot of things riding, which is the reason why account planning itself got, came into the, came into being in the first place because, you know, there's a lot riding on the campaign, a lot riding on this launch. Right. So you would want to be careful about what you want to do. You want to have a lot more information. You want to then make sure that information gets digested, assimilated. So it's a lot, I would say the process is a lot more, longer. You get more time, right. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(10:17):

And you know, the outputs are way more tangible in mainline because you're doing this one campaign, obviously a campaign manage account, right. Just an example I'm giving you while on digital, it's a lot more busy, for lack of better word. You're a lot more busy because you're not just doing one campaign. You are going through Google Analytics to figure out is there a behavior to this journey that they're taking here, add to cart. So there is this data that you get that is far more minute and you can make micro decisions including, let's change the messaging here now let's change the website design right now here. Let add, let's add another thing, which is the UI, which is now becoming more of a UX. I'm a UX person, which is like, why do user research? 

Abhimanyu Saha
(11:21):

We should do the same thing in digital, but it was not called anything, right. So we should do all of that. We would go on social. We will do ethnography, and we'll call it digital ethnography. So we'll see people, what they're sharing, because that's the best form of research, right? Unbiased one. You know what Mita is researching? You know, Mita is sharing this. This is days where Facebook was very prevalent. And you can go and see people, what they're seeing, Instagram, because you can see what people share, what they're doing. Right. So then we would be accumulating a lot of this secondary data, unbiased, and then saying, okay, this is the campaign that can be done. And even in the campaign that can be done, it doesn't have to be a communication campaign. As I said, it could be a tech led campaign. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(12:00):

So let's say that, you know, you are creating a chatbot. Like, just make sure that, okay, you know, here people are coming, looking for a recipe, and we can put all these recipes that we have and make sure that, you know, it's made in front in the form of a chatbot. So on the website, when they come, you know, we have a lot of traffic. Let's say Fortune Oil, we did this chatbot. So they said, okay, let's land people here and let them give this chatbot access, and we will get information. Then we would do campaigns where people could engage, let's say, like build landing page. And let's say were doing it for Kachi Ghaani or mustard oil. You could do it specifically in up West Bengal, Assam, Tripura, target, do specific language campaigns and land people there. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(12:46):

Give them giveaways, get data, do next campaign better. So it was a lot more micro, lot more niche, lot more specific, while keeping the larger brand in mind, larger, you know, tone of voice in mind, larger audience behavior in mind. But you had to, like, connect a lot of dots, and your solutions could be not just an ad. That's what at least we didn't Experience Commerce as planners. Right. And later on in my life, I did a lot of business strategy for my I, you know, by CEO Sandeep, because were pivoting ourselves a digital business agency where we said that we are actually going to impact your business and not just communication. And it's not just about a campaign. So we would build, like, let's say b, two B, or what we would call general marketing, the channel partners. Channel partner. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(13:42):

Maybe it's a term that nobody in today's they will understand. Channel partner means that if you are a brand, which has a B2B footprint. You're going through a channel to the end consumer. So let's see if you're cement brand contractor is your channel partner, contractor is an influencer, he's a channel partner. Or if you are selling in Gino, let's say when we're working with Castrol, your mechanic is the channel part because, you know, you're going through that person. So how do you influence these people? How do you, like, know, use tech so that they're like, you know, info Castro that made a tab app where you could like, come and take all the information from the customer. And a lot of this was also about the brands getting data and knowing what's happening, then understanding, building new products on top of that. 

Abhimanyu Saha (14:26):

So a lot of that was happening in what were doing. Great. 

Mita Mandawker
(14:33):

Lovely. I think I learned a lot from this conversation around, you know, how did, how does planning look like in a digital agency? So many exciting takeaways from it. I think this is going to be a great set of information for anyone who's curious about, you know, what that. What do planners do and how does it look like, you know, in any kind of a setup? So I think. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(14:56):

And another. So when, so when. Yeah, when I was like, at the fag end of my strategic director career, I was sort of retiring or whatever. Call it my agency Experience (Commerce) was taken over by Cheil. Cheil is a Korean agency. I don't know if you've heard about it. Cheil India, they are also an agency. We started only as an in-house agency for Samsung, by the way, and now they do other brands as well. But they are all Samsung work is done by Cheil. Everything that you see is done by Cheil. So when I went to their Delhi office and were pitching for this brand called MG, and MG was launching India, MG Motors, right. And they were launching India. And they, you know, were pitching for this brand. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(15:43):

And so we did this integrated pitch with Experience Commerce, bringing the digital part and all this tech and intelligence. And, you know, they're doing their mainline stuff, etcetera. And when I went to the Cheil office, I almost felt like a hero because they were like, he's a planner who understands digital, right? So, so then they're like, oh, I mean, they were. They were looking at me like I was like, from IIM - IIT types, like, you know. Oh, right. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(16:09):

You know, like, so what happened by that time was that I was so unique because I already had the planning brand part of it in my education and how I was sort of building myself and then I got exposed to all this digital and technology part of the, for the ecosystem and I become very unique in people's mind and they were like, and by the way, we won that pitch also. I think Cheil won that account. So MG was initially done by Cheil for at least for the first two years. I think. 

Mita Mandawker
(16:46):

Wow, lovely. I think there is swag… of being a digital planner. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(16:52):

I mean if you are the right kind. True. 

Mita Mandawker
(16:57):

I think that holds true for any career, right? Regardless of whether it's planning for sure. Marketing career, research career. So we have spoken about your career as a digital planner. We have spoken about your time at Experience Commerce, which impacted you so much and which also changed the trajectory of your career. What you did as what you felt as a person. But despite all of that, you chose to, like you mentioned, retire from your career as a digital planner and go into doing something completely different, which was starting GuruQore. So let's dive into that. Please do share. What were some trigger points or what were some pivotal points behind that decision? What is it that you do at GuruQore and what really drives you to do that? 

Abhimanyu Saha
(17:50):

All right, so I think pivotal question is pretty clear. Pivotal though, that by the time I was doing all of this, like six years of my, you know, hardcore professional life, six, seven years, I was also doing music. And then I started getting into music production side of it. Like, you know, I was a guitarist, which is like, let's say a specialist. Then I wanted to become a generalist, which is a music producer. So music producer is a person who puts things together, right. He or she is not a specifically talented guitarist or specifically talented drummer, specific talented vocalist, but he or she can put the things together to make something out of it. And I was trying that side of me and I quickly figured that I'm very good at it. Like I am a very good producer. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(18:42):

I won't say very good, it's very subjective thing, but very good at that from, let's say, being a guitarist. I'm a decent guitarist. I've played for more than ten years - guitar, but I'm not great. I never, I was never going towards greatness in guitar. So when I started music production and, you know, it started with garage brand and you know, this whole Mac I had gotten from office and I started, you know, exploring it and then I sort of started putting out these, you know, two-minute clips, 1-minute audios and I was sharing it with people. Right. You know, piloting this startup, piloting chalu kia (started piloting) and then you know, I was giving it to people and people were hearing it. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(19:20):

And me being the kind of person who would always like, try to get consumer behavior and research, I was just doing it. I was like, sending and I was like, okay, till the time I hit one point, I remember this person. She was working in my team. She worked in GuruQore as well. Rewa. She sent me that. I think this is your zone. Like, you know, I was practicing and experimenting with the kind of tracks that I was making because, you know, you have to get your genre music. And from there on, I started, I said that, okay, I will, I'll bring out an album again. I went into this monk mode focus zone that I will bring out an album and put it up my Spotify and other streaming platforms. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(20:04): 

So, and while I was doing all of this after office and post-working hours, I said, I will give myself a break. I have done a lot. So I will sort of take this project out and, you know, after that, I'll see what I want to do. So music was big, a big pivot there. I was not really thinking that I would become a musician full-time or anything, but it was like, okay, I want to give it a shot. I want to give it a try. I was getting a lot into the nitty gritty of it, you know, because as you know, now that you will be editing and you are doing all that, you know, you need to get into it. Lots of things are there, right? 

Abhimanyu Saha
(20:42):

And, you know, if you are the kind of personality that I am, I just get very deeply into that subject for one time, if I am doing something and then, like, that makes sense for me to put three months for this and build out the project professionally. And that was the major trigger. Other triggers also that I already had worked for a long time, sort of getting a bit of burnout. I feel I was not getting up and feeling like going to office, which was a big sign for me. And I was like, no, dude, that's not working out because I'm always, like, pumped to go and do the work. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(21:19):

So I said, even though it was very drastic, even for my CEO to see that I'm going to leave because I don't know, but he never told me so many words, but he always wanted me to become the next CEO because he was exiting, right? He was exiting from his company. He was like, you know, because it was becoming tough to get people and, you know, at this leadership position, who knows the culture and knows how things are done, etcetera he always was pushing me, by the way, Sandeep Maiti for me to become Business Head, which I never took that. I never took that. I never. I never took that. Whatever it's called, this thing. I never. I never bid that shit. So I never got that business thing. But he wanted me to be the CEO. So then he was like, okay. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(22:04):

And I was like, no, I know it's drastic. It sounds drastic to you, but, you know, for me, it's like, you know, I'm not really feeling coming to office and it never happens with me. I already had a team of like five, six people, including like, data analysts and creative strategists, everything who are working with me. And I said that, you know, I will give it like three months proper and I will, like, hand over everything. I actually told him six months before, I think, so that he knew because I knew it would be a shock for him. So, yeah, then I sort of went out of that. Just had started working on the song and everything. Covid hit. I was supposed to go to this nice place in Uttarakhand in one of my friends. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(22:44):

She had like a, like this cottage sort of thing happening for her. And I said on Covid started and sab kuch band ho gaya (everything came to a stop). And then I was like, put like, you know, I thought that I will play some gigs here and there. Basically, so I could just make music. So I said, okay, making music is alright. Everything is online. So I started making the music and putting them out along with my wife, who's also a classical music teacher. So the first album, you know, she has her vocals in all the songs. I just didn't know what to do. I said, okay, yahan gaana gaa de (sing a song here). That's all. Whatever you want to do. I never wanted to give. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(23:25):

You know, when I work with people in the creative, I really give less guidelines because unless it is like for a client, just different thing if it's for me, both come guidelines. I mean, even people who are working with me right now, they know that I hardly have any approval, things going on. So maybe I just called her. I was like, you just. There's a space. She sang. First song goes out. It got good response from people. It was Covid. People were also online, people are also listening to new things and they were all absorbing stuff. So they were like, great. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(24:02):

And, you know, I already was sort of a, how do I put, like the heart of the community of my friends and all people, like, have this think that they support me, that, you know, because, no, maybe I have supported them or whatever, or they find me a person who should be supported. So they supported me like anything. Everyone's just supporting and sharing, right? So that gave me a lot of, you know, nice, you know, motivation. Not that I needed motivation because I already had produced all the songs, so I was just releasing them month by month. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(24:39):

The second song I released, it got a Spotify editorial playlist of feature, which is a huge thing because, you know, that means that you are going to be in a Spotify playlist that they make, which is hundreds and thousands of listeners. And the song was called Tranquil Chaos. And that got. Song got. And even everyone loved that song, it is still to date one of my hit songs. So. And I am also doing consulting side by side with Experience Commerce now because I'm like, okay, I'm not really going to be going out anywhere, so might as well do some consulting and earn some money, just sustain myself. All right. And by the time this is happening, my brother loses his job in Deloitte. And then we said, okay, let's start something. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(25:27):

You have always been talking about ideas. You call me. This is a very good time. Both of us don't have a job. Let's start. And we started with this podcast, said, okay, we have to get engaged in something. So we start with podcasts. And I was already in production music, so I knew all of that was easy for me. Podcast console software, mic, we did, too. By the end of it, he was already ready to do a startup. He was like, very business mode. He came up with this idea that, you know, in us and everything we are seeing a lot of these coaches, they don't have this workflow end to end. And it's like a hypothesis. I like, you know, do you really need to research this, like, shit really well to like. So I said, listen, I am not the startup person. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(26:14):

You understand that? And I'm not the startup person. I'm the creative rebel right now. I'm in that state. And, you know, I need to, like, take that out. I'm not going to be in business right now. So he's like, no, you don't have to be in business. I'll be the business person. You helped me with the marketing part. You get me to build this product for me. You have built digital products before and all that, you know, so you know how it's done. So build it for me. I said, thik hai (it's okay), he's like, you know, I'll give you stakes. And so then I become this person who's the operator, so-called, like, you know, that, you know, is trying to do this business. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(26:49):

And I am then getting my friends who are UI-UX people to then sort of do like a prototype, figuring out what kind of app it would be, doing some research with people. And then we build this huge ass app which doesn't get traction at all. And that was the biggest learning of my life. Maybe one of the hardest and the biggest thing that I have gotten that you cannot just build and wait, right? And I don't know, we didn't know that, but were building and waiting, so nobody came. And then we started this thing called pivoting, which then is like, ever. And part of our DNA is sort of like to pivot very fast. And so after like one and a half years when were doing this, we got a team on board. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(27:37):

I had people who had worked with me before working with us, four or five-member team, tech team, etcetera. We did this full tech-like game. It doesn't work out. And I completely forget I'm a marketer, I just become a builder, I'm building stuff, I'm building a product and I become this product person and it doesn't work out. And then we, after one and a half years, we have sort of decide that, listen, it's not happening. Our runway is over. And by the way, within six months of like starting up, he joins Amazon back with a good fat paycheck. And he's like, listen, I'm gonna join this company back because we would need Runway. I'm like, alright, we need runway. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(28:25):

He joins his job back and he still did doing that job. And so, and he slowly sort of detaches himself from the system and, you know, he just becomes an employee, right? So, I mean, he does help every day in, day out, whenever it's required. And he still finances from time to time, whatever is the requirement, etcetera. But then for the next three, four years, you just become the finance person and, you know, he becomes a person who is just coming and consulting and I become this person who's like, okay, now I'm the founder, I'm this co founder. I've put my name online, I've put all my leverage online and I put all my identity online, so might as well do it. And so, you know, that started the journey of pivoting. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(29:08):

Then we said, okay, let's look at pivoting from product to a service because service may give us some money and give us some runway to sort of keep running it. So while the product was going on, we started this freelance matchmaking service because the community were building was aware of freelance marketers who were trying to sell the app initially for invoicing. It was becoming an invoicing app. So then we use that community and then my, no community from the client side who were looking to build some brands or marketing stuff because they all trusted me. Because marketing, right? Because they're like, but I was just doing this different sort of a gig here that giving them like sort of freelancers that they needed at that time. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(29:08):

And I think it worked out also because a lot of startups came out at that time as they needed these sort of people who would come and do the job and not be an agency, sort of like charge. Right? So that happened. And then slowly we were, I was molding it into a consistent story, which I knew in my head. So I said, okay, community is an interesting story. That could be the central ploy. And then I thought, okay, what all verticals we have this freelance matchmaking vertical. I always wanted to be into teaching because maybe that's another thing that's surprising now, but it's not. I was always teaching, even in Bombay when I was working in Experience (Commerce)I used to teach PG students advertising. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(30:34):

And I teaching right now in Mount Carmel, I go to Christ, I go to Symbiosis now to teach the entrepreneurship module. The teaching is very strong and very aligned with me. Marketing it, marketing is. But I think teaching more than marketing. So marketing teaching becomes lot more ikigai, you know, if there is any. Right? So I always wanted to have the academy vertical. So then we said, okay, it's a community of marketeers. We're already giving them sort of gigs. So the vision became, how do we really give access to quality education and careers to marketeer the woah woge? I'm on a vision. And then the sort of story became clear in my head that through this community, we'll help people get sort of jobs and gigs, also educate them. And then obviously networking is an outcome of all of that. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(31:22):

So, you know, so that became like what GuruQore is today. 

Mita Mandawker
(31:29):

So many, I think you are a sailor. I think that's the right way of putting it, choppy waters. Abhimanyu is on a ship. He's navigating this ship. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(31:43):

It's interesting because you are using the word sailor. I didn't think of it that way, but whenever I am pivoting, I cannot maybe obviously explicit to universe, but it is one of the hardest thing I have ever done, pivoting, you know, it's like a big ship, and I always have this analogy in my head or a visual that is a big ass ship, like a Titanic. I is going in one direction, and all of a sudden you're like, okay, no, we can't go in that direction. You know, we have to, like, go opposite more sideways. So you have to, like, bring all of it like, you know, your content, your website, your, you know, people, your alignments, your, you know, everything. So it's like, so that way. A sailor, maybe. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(32:27):

Yeah, because, you know, I'm just like, you know, making these ships sort of go from here to there. I don't know how long I can continue, but for sure, that has been something that I've been doing here. 

Mita Mandawker
(32:42):

If you think this becomes a little philosophical, but if you think about it, pivoting is an essential life skill. You have to learn how to pivot in your personal life. You have to learn how to pivot in your professional life. And I think more so professionally for marketers, this very dynamic industry that we work in, a lot of new things will keep on coming in. It will change the way in which you work. You approach your career. It's already, it's happened so many times. We have lived through those pivots, and we are not even that old. I mean, look at it. Eleven years when you started off digital was just like a new buzzword, like a new kid on the block. Now it's become like the kid on the block. 

Mita Mandawker
(33:28):

So many changes have happened, but I think it's a very good skill to have to learn how to pivot. And, wow, your GuruQore 1.0, was such a different version of what you actually thought it would be to what it is right now. It's like a complete 360. And I've realized, like, you know, based on the kind of content that I've seen you put out on LinkedIn and also through our chats, that you feel very passionate about, you know, teaching young marketing professionals on how do they build, like, very lasting marketing skills and also, like, what sort of skills they should really invest time in. And I think that was also sort of the genesis of this new program that you're putting together, which is called the Modern Marketer Program. Full disclosure, I'm also doing like a module in it. 

Mita Mandawker
(34:20):

I'm going to be very open about it, and it's fun. One, like, one thing that really struck me when we first chatted about it, was that - most of the programs that we see online, they're very focused on hard skills. Like extremely focused on, you know, how do you develop skill A, Skill B, Skill C, do capstone in it and, you know, that's about it. But you're trying to build something slightly different. There is a huge integration of soft skills, which we will all say, based on the number of years that we've spent industry, that hard skills are important for you to do your job. But it's the soft skills that will take you the long way, that will take you ahead, and you're trying to build that in a proper marketing program, so to speak. Would love to understand a little more about this program. 

Mita Mandawker
(35:06):

What is it that you're trying to bring to this very young marketing folks or folks who are trying to make that transition? I know there is some interesting backstory there. I know it personally, but I would love for the audience to hear about it. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(35:19):

I think the Modern Marketers Program sort of stems from the fact that I am seeing a lot of people not getting into the fundamentals of marketing and missing out. That's, that's the, that's the basic feel that I have because, you know, I see, I come from a background where I've learned marketing from Kotler, maybe. I'm not suggesting that you have to learn from that, but I'm just saying that, you know, I've gotten that exposure. So, you know, it's always like an art form. You need to go to that genesis, and therefore you get it better. You are always supposed to change it. You are always supposed to evolve, but know where it comes from. Right. And I am seeing, in today's day, everything starts with digital. So marketing, means, performance ads, you know, so. And it's not a problem for the young. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(36:09):

It's not a thing that the young people should be blamed for. It's just that the education system is right now that whoever's building a course, whoever's building a program, you know, it's like the chicken and egg, they think that if I say digital, people will take it. And, you know, they, people feel also digital only are the skills that are being paid for. Right. So it's that sort of thing. Right. But the challenge is that if the world is moving towards that. And it was going fine. I was alright with it, but it was not, it's not going fine. Because when I speak to people and they, their 360 brains don't sort of, networks don't connect. I just see, they say, marketing, let's start an ad or let's try to copy. I'm like, dude, that's not marketing. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(36:53):

Go do some research, go do some consumer behavior, insight mining, understand the category. And what I have figured throughout my life is that while there are specialists are required and now the whole world is going to this whole specialization run, that's happening. That, you know, I am meta ads. I'm not even performance, I'm meta ads walla, right? I'm not even, I'm Amazon, I'm SEO only for SaaS. Good, good stuff. I am completely fine in line because you get the job, you get the money, you feed yourself, and we need a good healthy tummy. That's all right. But student, I come from that philosophy that you have to be a student from this function. You need to go beyond because you have started at playing, let's say T20, you don't even know test match, right? And there's a test match is not required. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(37:51):

But even in today's day, giving a cricket analogy, test is what builds character. Still test matches is what builds character. And it's one of the hardest and still one of the most interesting format for the people who know cricket and understand cricket. I mean, from the outsider perspective, T20 is entertainment. That's good. But you are a student of the marketing, so therefore you need to know the test, right? You are not another person from outside the industry. You want to be a student of this industry. So know that. Know that. Because I have always felt the specialist people like, let's say me here, who was, you know, working with me. He became a media planner, he became a specialist. He's now the director of, or whatever media strategy in SLS, big place, etcetera. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(38:35):

But he's always been a good business person, understands business very well because he's a Gujju. So that comes a little intuitive to him. But he always understands business, right? He intuitively understood strategy. These are all intuitively his understanding, maybe intuitively, or he has learned in his MBA or whatever, doesn't matter. He intuitively understands what ideas will work. Creative, right? Do you see this person who's senior director at Essence Mediacom has reached there only because he has this 360 skills on the outside of it. You are seeing this person being a media planner. He would not be the senior director there. Na, how do you differentiate? How do you go up only when you have those skills? And these are the best people to work with. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(39:24):

Also, if you are a business owner or a brand manager or whatever, because you're like, okay, I'm going to go to this person. This person will not have any understanding of my business. Nothing bad. These people are specialists will do that work. But that next level up, your learning has to happen because more and more you will realize if you want to be, let's say today, more and more people want to be independent. They want to have their own agencies or owned solo stuff going on. You will talk to clients and clients talk business language, clients talk brand marketing. They will never talk. Maybe he or she will come and talk to you like that. But don't encourage that. Encourage that. You should talk to me in business. I will make sure that this works out. That's exactly what I feel is missing. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(40:17):

And that's why exactly I feel passionate about bringing this program out of. Right. David Ogilvy, when he started his career, he was, by the way, chef. Before that, just, you know, giving you some dope. He was a chef, he became a copywriter. And when he became one, he didn't have any degrees. He didn't have to have, but he was never talking only about copywriting, which is what I see. Everyone on the LinkedIn or whoever does this copywriting course, they just talk about that. And I understand again where they come from because, you know, it's just niche and focus on copywriting. But David Ogilvy always spoke about clients and business and moving needles. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(40:56):

He has specific quotes, and I can write it down too, where he says that, you know, it's not about, if it is not selling, then it's not copywriting simple, right? So I think that sensitization for the specialist is what this course is for, that they get to see this world, which is, you know, something that they haven't seen because they've gone specifically into this thing, right? And I think that the soft skill part is the other part that, you know, I have added. This is like, why this 360 marketing part, but why the soft skills part is that I had a late realization in my life when I was going through all of this journey. And maybe when I was talking to you and other people, I figured that, dude, maybe I was a good strategist, but I was a great storyteller. Which is why I had growth. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(41:44):

I used to go to businesses. My. My CEO used to like me because I was able to synthesize structured information that put it in a way that people could absorb. This is all storytelling. This is all structuring, selling your work, etcetera. And these are all soft skills that nobody talks about. You will never grow in your career unless you do that. Unless you have that. So I said, why can't we have. Why is no, IIM. Why is no, you know, MICA doing that. They don't do that there for them. They're like, okay, I am a perfect person to give you academics. Come get it. Get that brand you know, seal, leave. But, you know, I couldn't do that as a startup because I am passionate about what I'm doing now. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(42:27):

I can't just create another program just for the sake of it, because I have to live it, live through it every day. So that's. That's the reason. 

Mita Mandawker
(42:38):

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we are in, like, final leg of our conversation, and I think before we move to that final leg, I have one question that I want to ask you. I've seen quite a few times wherein you have referred to yourself as a missionary founder. I've seen you comment, I've seen you write posts on it, and I actually wanted to understand a little more about that. You know, as a person, you're extremely driven by the kind of ideas that you have. So can you just get a little bit more into, you know, what is it like being a missionary founder and how does it really help the way in which you're building your business? 

Abhimanyu Saha
(43:20):

The term I found in a blog that Shashank, from the Whole Truth, he writes, and he mentioned this mercenary versus missionary, two types of founder. And I said, okay, you know, I'm surely a missionary founder. And, you know, I always used to tell that I'm a purpose-led person and, you know, believing in the why of what we are doing also comes from my planning background, because a lot of this why questions has been asked all the time. So this whole golden circle framework of Simon Sinek and why, how what? I would always do this in our, you know, a lot of our pitches and for brands. So I am always been that person. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(43:55):

As a business, there are always challenges with this sort of a point of view, because, like, right now, we are trying to do this program where there's nothing from digital, there's no growth marketing, there is no, let's say, you know, how to run ads and stuff. Like that, which is what people want right now, at least what is trending, right? And I'm trying to go against the trend and trying to percolate, introduce a new story, a new concept that, hey, this is what we need to learn right now. And, you know, you need to become this modern marketer. So it doesn't help right off the bat because I'm not riding a trend, right. So purpose comes from within. It takes time. Not always good for business. So, you know, if you're a business person, you may not always want to be missionary. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(44:40):

And, you know, missionary businesses don't make a lot of money because you have a lot of value as a person. I have a lot of values. I cannot overcome those values. It's as simple as, let's say, having a, like, you know, hook on my reel, which is little bit, you know, like, you know, misleading. I cannot do that. And it doesn't help me because if you have to grow on reels and Instagram, you have to do that. That's just the reality. You're trying to hit reality. Reality doesn't like all of that, right? So you. You need to do that balance act, right? And, you know, I'm a huge philosopher and fan of philosophy, so I have to sort of figure out that, you know, how do I overcome that? You know, I just tell myself that, you know, this is. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(45:28):

This is just your right now, and this is your job. So your job is to make sure that people come and join this program because you feel this will be helpful for them given, know you have your ethics in place, but don't keep having these values and don't have this like yeh nahi ho sakta (this can’t happen) and all that, you do strike that balance, and that's where the challenge is. Right. So. But striking balance is very important and otherwise. Right. The great part is that, you know, your heart is always aligned, which is very important because, you know, if I'm going through hard days, like right now, this program, I know we have to get people. Get people introduced to this new concept. It's a high-involvement decision. You know, doing one is to one conversations with a lot of people. It's tough. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(46:15): 

So day in and day out, you're doing a very tough job if you are not aligned with what you're doing toh hoga hi nahi (it can’t happen at all). Right. So I believe that your heart has to be aligned with what you're doing. So that's it. 

Mita Mandawker
(46:29):

Okay. So, basically, right now, to wind up this conversation, I think one thing that I ask all my guests is, what are some things that you have, you know, really learned and you would like to share with your 21 year old self today? Looking back, that's one. And second thing is, what are a few things that you would share with the listeners to, you know, like really thrive, grow and navigate your marketing career? Very three different things. So, yeah, these two things. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(47:03):

Okay. The first one is, to my 20-year-old or 21-year-old person, I would say that things work out eventually. That's one important thing I would tell enjoy the moment that you are living at that point of time and serve more people. These are the three things I would say. I can say ten also, but it will go on. 

Mita Mandawker
(47:42):

I think we are good. I think that's a great start. And what career advice would you give to marketers? 

Abhimanyu Saha
(47:50):

Yes. Let's go. That's it. Marketeers. First, become 360. Please become 360 marketeers. Even if you are going to be a specialist, please be. But make sure that you understand, as I said in the previous part, that people will find you a better person to work with. And that's a very underrated skill because you know other things, unless you know rather other things apart from what your specialization is. And it makes for better conversation, it makes for way more insightful ideas and strategies, makes the other person trust you a lot more because you know more than that. Right. But first, yes, I would obviously not ask you to do all of it unless you know your work well. So if you're a content writer, know how to write content well. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(48:42):

If you are a SEO person, know how to do all that first. So it's not to take away from the fact that you need to specialize and do that thing very well, but add those muscles around you as you grow in the career because these are the only things that make you grow. And it's actually one of the pedagogy of our course. And there's like this Venn diagram that Chirag has built out of this AI program that, you know is it's the, it's at the intersection of career growth, is the intersection of subject matter expertise and confidence. And confidence comes from soft skills and subject matter expertise comes from you leading, learning, upskilling to simple. And that's exactly how we have designed the program as well. So career growth, confidence and subject matter expertise. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(49:36):

Side note, obviously, try to work with people that you like, that you feel that like, you know, light your heart up, that gives, give you the passion equivalently up. We are going to always work with people, so there's no time to really work with people that you don't like, you know, it's, even if it's like a 15 - 20 years career, try to be working in situations and organizations and culture. Match Japanese because I said, like, for me, six years were like such a molding thing and I was like enjoying it. Like anything so important apart from another skill side of it. Make sure that you are in places where, you know, your personality comes out. You are able to express yourself in the people, like really liven you up more important. 

Mita Mandawker
(50:26):

I think this could not have ended on a better note. Lovely, lovely advice, Abhimanyu. As always, it's fun chatting with you or that enthusiasm you have. No. And that josh, it kind of rubs off when you start talking. So love the conversation. I can't wait for this to be out and for the world to listen because I'm sure they're going to. It's going to offer some unparalleled insights into firstly, like, you know, what it takes to build a career planning and b all the adventures and misadventures involved in building a company or a business of your own. And I think those are extremely important things for anyone to know. 

Mita Mandawker
(51:13):

Also, I'm going to make sure that I link all the things that you mentioned during our chat, like the input-output world of marketing, so that the listeners can go check it out. But thank you once again, Abhimanyu, for coming on the show, for spending so much time, and for all the tech glitches that have taken place today. Thank you so very much. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(51:36):

Thank you so much for being such a great host because I think 90% of the conversation is about the questions and you have asked so many great questions. And as I told you before, that you are a great host. Not just saying yes, but, you know, you have all the quality of great hosts. Keep it coming and, you know, we'll keep hearing more interesting stuff from Marketeers Help Marketeers. 

Mita Mandawker
(52:02):

It's Marketers Help Marketers. And the podcast is called Ctrl + Alt + Marketing. 

Abhimanyu Saha
(52:07):

Okay, Ctrl + Alt + Marketing. Cool, cool.